Since emerging from the jazz-rock scene in England during the 1960's, John McLaughlin has been committed to reshaping the language of the guitar into a personal, powerful musical expression of his inner vision.
Early in his career, he embarked on a series of high-profile projects, including records and performances with drummer Tony Williams' Lifetime, a trio McLaughlin so enjoyed working with that he initially declined an offer to join Miles Davis' group. But after Lifetimes members parted ways, McLaughlin took Miles up on his offer, and went on to contribute to many of Davis masterpieces, including Bitches Brew, Directions, A Tribute to Jack Johnson, In a Silent Way, and Live Evil. In 1970, he recorded My Goals Beyond, beginning a long and fruitful relationship with the acoustic guitar.
Throughout the 70's, McLaughlin continued to experiment with contexts: his legendary Mahavishnu Orchestra set commercial and artistic precedents for electric fusion with the classic The Inner Mounting Flame and Birds of Fire, albums which sold hundreds of thousands of records and led the band to perform to sellout crowds. At the height of its success, McLaughlin returned to acoustic guitar and formed the first edition Shakti, a pioneering Indian group that further demonstrated his eclecticism. He continued his acoustic and electric explorations for years to come, combining their best elements and always finding new grooves in the process. Lured back to electric music with solo recordings and a revamped Mahavishnu in the 80's, McLaughlin experimented with guitar synthesis, and wrote and performed The Mediterranean Concerto for classical orchestra.
On the eve of the fall 2003 release of his latest orchestral work, "Thieves and Poets," McLaughlin hits the road again with the latest version of Shakti, featuring tabla great Zakir Hussain, U. Shrinivas on mandolin, and V. Selvaganesh on kanjira, ghatam, and mridangam. The group makes their only Texas appearance on Sunday, September 28th, 5:00 p.m. at the Verizon Wireless Theatre.
I recently spoke with McLaughlin in Paris by phone from radio station KPFT 90.1 FM in Houston for the following interview, portions of which will be aired on the stations "Border Crossings" show Thursday September 25, between 10:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m.
Mark Towns: Tell me about the Shakti tour.
John McLaughlin: Im leaving in just a few days. We begin in Colorado, then we go over to the West coast, up the West coast up to Vancouver, then start to move East, work through the Midwest and then well be down to see you in Houston.
MT: Are you rehearsing a lot for this show?
JM: Oh, yeah. We always like to rehearse. Well do this in Colorado.
MT: Are you doing many of your new compositions?
JM: Yeah, therell be some new compositions, yeah. And although I dont think that hell be there with us in Houston Do you know the singer Shankar Mahadevan?
MT: Yes.
JM: Yeah, well Shankar Mahadevan will be with us the first ten days. But I think hell be leaving before we get down to Houston. Its too bad he cant stay with us the whole tour. This guys become a superstar in India in the last couple of years, so hes really busy. But, hes coming on the first ten days of the U.S. tour. And then we have about four or five weeks in the U.S. and then we come back to Europe. Then we do a European part, another month in Europe, and he comes back again to join us for another ten days. But if you know "Saturday Night in Bombay" [Shakti recording from December 2000], then you know the work that weve already done together.
MT: Miles Davis was once quoted as saying the best bands are [racially] mixed bands.
JM: mixed bands, yeah!
MT: Why do you think that is? I mean, I agree with that
JM: Why? Because thats the way it is! It has a cultural richness, I think. You have people from different cultures coming together they input their culture, they input their ideas and I think the global result as a consequence is richer with that input.
MT: Are you still into exploring the relationship between the 12 astrological signs and the 12-tone scale?
JM: No, not so much as I was in the past. It was a consideration for me. But, Im more concerned with the quality of the relationship between intervals, which gives the impact. And Im speaking about harmony here, because this is essentially about harmonies and the notes, and the relationships between notes. They are governed by, like everything else, the laws of harmony, whether they are dissonant or whether they are hard dissonant, or whether they are soft dissonant, whether they are consonant or whether theyre hard consonant; There are a number of qualifying levels that govern the relationship between notes. But, I much more concerned now with the way they hit my inner ear, as it were, and how they correspond to what I hear in my imagination.
So, I have less consideration about the astrological implications and harmony. It was very interesting in the early days, when I would write pieces for that persons particular sign, and the combination of different astrological influences translated into music. I mean, it was kind of interesting. But, at this point Im much more interested in the exploration of the quality of the tensions and relationships between notes.
MT: What about the way the space between notes is perceived the way the notes reflect the space between them?
JM: The space between the notes?
MT: Yes.
JM: Yeah, well, what about it? (laughs)
MT: Is that something that youve contemplated?
JM: Yeah, Ive contemplated it my whole life. My whole life has been dedicated to music. And of course, Ive been accused a million times of playing too fast or too many notes, and Im sure justifiably sometimes. But, you know, Im the way I am and as we grow old, we learn and Im still learning about space. But Ill be learning about space until I die.
One of the great masters of space was Mahalingam. I dont know if you know him flute player? [T.R. Mahalingam] He passed away quite a few years ago. He was a master of space and tension. Unbelievable. If you could find any recording by him, its definitely worth a listen.
MT: You've said Jimi Hendrix had a powerful effect on you.
JM: Oh, yeah! Him and many others, too not the least of which was Miles and that whole gang from the late 50s that were in Miles band. But, Jimi had an influence on me, like he had on, I think, every guitar player. He was kind of a revolutionary. And, whereas we were all experimenting in the 60s with feedback and these big amps and just looking for new ways of playing the electric guitar, Jimi really put it all together with the Stratocaster and the Marshall. I mean, he just he turned the world on its ear. He had the most profound effect, and lasting effect, because the effect of Jimi Hendrix on guitar players is with us still today. And he changed the course of rock music, and blues, and pop music. He had a very direct effect on guitar players in these genres, yknow.
MT: Where do you see yourself as fitting in the history of guitarists?
JM: I dont look at myself like that all. I think thats your job, Mark! (laughs) I dont care where you put me! (laughs)
MT: You seem to be a great fan of music and you seem to be a person who has successfully synthesized all of his influences into something really unique. How do you feel about that? A lot of people like a lot of different things, but not many people can put em together like you have -- into something really different.
JM: First of all, my entire life has been dedicated to music, Mark. Im 61 years old now, and I will die with my life dedicated to music. Thats the way its always been and thats the way it will be. Ill stop when I die. But, in addition to that, I have this very profound fascination with different cultures and the music from different cultures, be it India, or be it Spanish, or particularly Flamenco, or even classical.
My new CD ["Thieves and Poets" on Verve Records] is with a symphony orchestra. This is a piece thats been kind of like cookin away for a few years now on the back burner, then worked here a little, put back on the back burner again, and finally Ive recorded it. Im very, very happy with the recording. And youll hear all kinds of diverse influences in this orchestral piece.
Originally I was a piano player. And I was playing classical music until 11 years old then the guitar came in and the blues came in -- that is, the Mississippi Delta Blues. And between the ages of 11 and 15, I heard all my major musical influences that would affect me throughout my life. At 11 years old I heard Mississippi Blues, at 13 I heard Flamenco music, and then I heard jazz music -- Django Reinhardt. And then I heard Indian music at that time. I didnt know what it was, but it had a very profound effect on me. And then at 15 or 16 years old, I heard Miles Davis band for the first time and that really knocked me out. That was the way I wanted to go. But, these influences marked me, you know, they had a very profound effect on me, all of them. And they still do today. Theyve had an effect on me throughout my entire musical life. And my personal life, too.
Especially India -- Indias had a very direct effect on the way I perceive things because of its culture and my fascination and love, basically, for that culture and the people of India.
So, I think in the end, Mark, love is the key. I think if you "love" a particular music, not only will you be influenced by it, but it will tend to come out in your own music. Its kind of inevitable, you know what Im sayin?
MT: It is if you have a clear channel to work with -- a clear mind with which to be able to channel the influences.
JM: Well, dont forget that I started studying, I mean, seriously 30 years ago, Indian music, more than 30 years ago. I began studying Indian music theory. And I became, for example, an extra curricular student at Western University in Connecticut. I was studying carnatic music [the music of south India] on the vina with Dr. Ramanathan, and this was a wonderful experience. And I became a kind of extra curricular student with the great Ravi Shankarji, who helped me so much with my theory, whether south or north Raviji is the master of both north and south Indian music, and he was wonderful to me. You know Zakir Hussain [Shaktis tabla player]?
MT: Oh, yes.
JM: Yeah, I mean, we go way back to, we met in 69. We started to play, the first time we played together was 71, thats 32 years ago, so, you know, here we are still going strong
MT: Is it because of the improvisational angle -- is that whats interested you about Indian music, the fact that its based on improvisation?
JM: Of course, of course. Thats one aspect. But its funky, too. I find Indian music very funky. I mean its very soulful, with their own kind of blues. But its the only other school on the planet that develops improvisation to the high degree that you find in jazz music. So we have a lot of common ground. And Im not the first to explore this; Coltrane did to a very powerful degree. His sons name is not Ravi for nothing. Coltrane himself was a student of Ravi Shankar.
MT: Right, right.
JM: And Im just following in the great mans footsteps, thats all. And Im very fortunate to have had a chance to study with these people. But, with Zakir, hes unbelievable. His is, without a doubt, the greatest tabla player in the world today. And hes a master improviser.
MT: I think hes the greatest percussionist in the world today -- on any percussion instrument
JM: Yeah, I mean, hes a tabla player essentially, and he makes the tabla sing. I mean theres some great percussion players, yknow, just look at the Santana Band, for example with uh with uh
MT: Raul Rekow and Carl Perazzo
JM: Raul and Carl yeah, and then especially when they are playing with Dennis [Chambers], my old comrade in arms, I mean that is some infernal machine they got going there. Unbelievable. I know -- we had a jam together last year with Santanas band. And this is another kind of percussion, but as a tabla player, Zakir is absolutely supreme. But whats wonderful is over the years, I mean, yknow, when you play together with somebody for 30 years, you develop this very strong complicity. So we have kind of communication thats wonderful, its just wonderful. But, of course, I play with Selvaganesh, the son of Vikku [Vinayakram, one of the original members of Shakti], and Shrinivas, the electric mandolin player. These guys are something -- these guys are prodigies.
MT: Do you think all improvisation and composition has a spiritual basis?
JM: No, I dont think about that in music. If you want to develop yourself in a spiritual way then I can highly recommend it. I began that many, many years ago and I will continue that. But, I dont really consider music in those terms. Because the way I see it, my life comes first. My interior life comes first. And the development of my interior life will take care of this because music follows life. Thats the way I see it. Its not the other way around. I dont have any message in the music. Music will be fine as long as you take care of yourself. Of course you have to work at the music. I mean, your life has to be dedicated to music, to the mastery of your instrument, otherwise the instrument will master you in the end.
I dont try to make this analogy between, "I follow a spiritual path and so I want to play spiritual music." Music is already a spiritual language! You dont have to think about music being a spiritual language or not; it already is, yknow what Im sayin?
MT: Yeah. You said you tried free jazz and you said it was not for you
JM: Absolutely not for me!
MT: Why not?
JM: Its chaotic. Its like every man for himself not exactly. Im being a little exaggerated here. But, I like to feel the rhythm, yknow, and the pulse of the rhythm. And frequently in free jazz, the pulse, its hard to even feel it, yknow. Because music has a certain sensuality about it, and this is where the rhythm comes in. Its everybody playing together that gives it that certain sensuality that I really like in music.
In free jazz, I think its possible let me put it this way, if you are totally self-disciplined and the fellow musicians youre playing with are all totally disciplined, I think you could play some free jazz because you have such a high development of the personality. Then you would automatically kind of harmonize with each other. But generally what happens is this chaotic element. Its not together in the way Id like it to be together, particularly in terms of rhythm. And this I found to be a problem for me. Thats why I did it, and then I left because it just not that Im against it, dont misunderstand me, Ive listened to free jazz and theres some wonderful things out there, but its just not for me personally.
MT: Youre known for doing many things in complex time signatures. Do you think some people have trouble relating to anything thats not in 4/4 time?
JM: Um, only because they havent been exposed to it. But I have to tell you something; Ive just finished work on a DVD that is for mastery of improvisation on guitar, and how to master harmony on the guitar, and how to really develop the sense of odd time signatures. And I think that its just a question of time before youll have more and more odd time signatures coming through. I mean look, even in pop music -- Sting had a pop tune in 5/4.
MT: Right.
JM: And thats really cool, you know, because, generally the pop market is basically catering to the lowest common denominator, which is not wrong. Dont misunderstand me, Im not into this elitist thing at all. Its just that, if its 4/4, and if its swingin and its funky, its great, because in the end, Mark, theres two kinds of music: good and bad.
MT: Right.
JM: And whatever the genre, whether its classical, whether its Indian, whether its from the North Pole, whether its from the Moon, it doesnt matter. Its good or its bad. And 4/4 or 5/4, this is just something particularly for instrumentalists where you can develop the sense of rhythm, and you can enjoy the shape of the rhythm. Because when you hear something in 7/4, its not like hearing something in 4/4 or 5/4 or 9/4, you know what Im sayin?
MT: Right. Even The Beatles did things in odd times, like "All You Need is Love."
JM: Yeah! It already started in the 60s
MT: Right.
JM: Yeah, The Beatles did a great advance work on this thing. It hasnt been continued because theres been no group like The Beatles since The Beatles, of course. But I think its just a matter of time. Because the level of musicianship in popular music continually rises, and there are some great things happening in pop music.
MT: Do you think the improvising musician will continue to survive?
JM: Continue to survive? Yeah.
MT: Things like acid jazz, jungle, drums and bass, hip-hop, and rap dont include much improvisation
JM: Not yet. Not yet, but they will.
MT: (laughs)
JM: Its just that Theres been a big movement the last, say, 10 years with all of these movements -- with jungle, and drums and bass, acid jazz, hip-hop, which I love. I love all of this. In fact, I listen even more to underground music than I do to overground, because Im a little disappointed, actually, with whats going on in jazz. And Im not alone. The young people, they hear this. Especially today, theres a lot of this retro movement to play how they used to play in the 60s. You know, I mean, this is pretty boring stuff.
MT: Well, do you think thats whats going on in jazz, or whats going on in the marketing and sales of jazz?
JM: Thats part of it. Yeah, thats part of it. The record companies, they wanted musicians to play in this retro style. Dont ask me why. But in America particularly, its very bad. Theres not this stigma attached to fusion music outside of the US. They dont care about it anywhere else except in the US, the media, this thing about fusion, so thats why its really only a problem as far as the US is concerned. But the US is the major music market in the world.
But these developments, which have been started by, for the most part, young people experimenting with sampling and computers and sequencers I mean, theyve done a great job. Theyve done a great job, but, you know, while theyve been bringing up these new ways of playing and new genres, the improvisers have been kind of staying 30 or 40 years back, you know what Im saying?
MT: Yeah.
JM: And so, theres a gap at the moment between these new innovators of form and the improvisers who are employing them. Because there are very few improvisers who employ these kind of forms.
MT: So can we take this to mean that youll soon be putting out some type of acid jazz or underground recording?
JM: I already started working on it a long time ago, Mark. Yeah, Im definitely there. The critics are gonna crucify me over this one.
MT: Oh, not me. Bring me a copy!
JM: (laughs) Ive done a lot of work on it. I dont think its gonna be out before late next year, because Ive been so busy with the orchestral work. Its a great recording.
MT: Will much of Shaktis show be improvised?
JM: You better believe it! I mean, yeah, weve got a lot of great compositions, weve got a lot of arrangements, but improvisation is the heart and soul of this band. Because thats where you get spontaneous, Mark. You know, youre a musician, right?
MT: Oh, yeah.
JM: Yeah. And you get spontaneous, youre in your natural human state, and our natural human state should be continuous improvisation, even out of music, you know what Im sayin?
MT: Oh yeah.
JM: Were improvising all the time.
MT: Right. We dont wake up with a script in our hand for the day.
JM: No.
MT: Were always improvising.
JM: We wake up with a big list of conventions in our mind, you know what Im sayin?
MT: Yes.
JM: And we tend to follow the conventions. But, in music, we dont have these problems, and we can be as free as we wish to be, and believe me, we will be very free. But not free jazz! (laughs)
MT: So, do you ever just play the guitar just for your own amusement anymore? Or is it always just for gigs or a project?
JM: Naw, you know, are you kidding? I live with the guitar. I love guitar. I love guitar.
MT: Are you playing more acoustic guitar or electric now?
JM: The new CD is all acoustic. I mean, its the first time Ive made an all-acoustic record in a long time about 10 years. But its really a great recording. Im very happy with it. But the next one wont be acoustic. I mean, there may be some acoustic on it, but it will be more electric.
MT: How do you want to be remembered?
JM: (pauses) Well, I dont care if you remember me or dont. Listen, Im the most fortunate of people, Mark. My lifes been dedicated to music. Ive been able to do explorations and adventures inside myself to bring out and discover new forms in music, and just have a wonderful time doing it. I mean, Im the most fortunate of people. I mean, if you dont remember me, then its really fine. (laughing) Its no problem! Will I care once Im gone? Of course not.
MT: When are you gonna do a Latin Jazz CD?
JM: Latin Jazz? Well, I was supposed to see Santana in three days, but I wont be able to do it. Hes playing in Paris, and he wants me to go up and play with him, but Im leaving very early on Saturday morning from a place called Nice Airport, so Im not gonna be able to go up there. But in the meantime, one of the pieces on this crazy record that Im planning for sometime next year or so is a piece that I wrote for Carlos and me. And so, I wanna get those great percussionists, Karl (Perazzo) and Raul (Rekow) and Dennis (Chambers) on this recording. So I dont know if Im gonna make an [entire Latin jazz] album, cause Ive got a lot of crazy things in my mind that I wanna do. But therell be some Latin Jazz on there for sure.
MT: Great. And this thing youre doing thats some type of acid jazz record does it have a title yet?
JM: No. No, the title will come when it comes. But Im very excited about it because I have all these strange ideas comin out of my imagination, you know.
MT: Great.
JM: And the jazz critics will have a field day. Theyll have a wonderful time (laughs).
MT: Youd be surprised. The ones in their twenties will probably love it.
JM: Yeah, youre probably right. Just the old fogies. I mean, a lot of people call me an old fogie. (laughs) But it doesnt matter.
MT: Right.
JM: Well see. Yeah, youre probably right there, though.
MT: Right.
JM: Its the younger generation, they know whats goin on.
MT: Yeah. Well, anything else you wanna add?
JM: Get a copy of the record! Youll see where Im coming from musically. I mean, you know, whatever words Im saying will never equal what Im able to say in music. Because I can talk to you about it, but its like telling you, "Mmm, Im eatin this delicious cake," you know, the best thing you can do is eat it.
TICKETS for John McLaughlin & Shakti, Sunday September 28 at Verizon Wireless Theater, 520 Texas Avenue, Houston, Texas 77002, are $23.50 to $73.50 and available from Verizon Wireless Theater Box Office (713.230.1600); TicketMaster (713-629-3700); or from the Indo-American Association (281-648-0422)